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 Post subject: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Ok, now if you're not level 50, or if you don't know economics, this thread will not even touch the top of your head, it'll fly right over it. But... The economy in this game is fucked and we're all doomed.

Allow me to explain.

When you are leveling up your toon, you have an income. That income is by the way of quest rewards and other such goodies. However, when you are level 50, you have no quests, and therefore no income. This presents a problem at max level, and that problem is that item durability decreases on a per-action basis. In short, in order to earn gil, you have to sacrifice item durability. If you run FATES, you have to pay for repairs. If you run dungeons, you have to pay for repairs. If you craft, you have to pay for repairs... and so on. Add teleporting costs into the equation, and you can see my quandary.

The big issue is that FATES and dungeons do not provide the income to cover repairs and transport, so rather quickly, your gil reserves plummet. This is because each time you repair or teleport, Square Enix effectively take gil out of the economy, and that gil does not get pumped back in to the economy at any point. Therefore, the higher percentage of level 50's there are on a server, the poorer the economy will be, because there are many hundred or indeed thousands of players running around without an income.

An anaolgy if you will,

Quote:
Imagine that your currency was also your food. In order to stay alive, you have to eat (and thereby also destroy some of your currency). Now with a 100k reserve, you can stay alive for a while, but eventually, your reserve will drop to 0 without a positive income. With a currency reserve of 0, you can't afford to fight, craft, or do anything, because when your gear is broken that's it, you can no longer afford to repair, or indeed travel.


Aha but you can sell shit on the marketplace, right?

Yes, you can but the marketplace is only a reflection of the gil resources in circulation. Because at max level, Square Enix is destroying gil at a faster rate than can be earned, eventually there will be no-one around to afford the shit you are trying to sell. For as long as there are new characters on the server (which can not be guaranteed in any MMO) there will be new gil, but what happens when the influx stops? Mark my words, in 3 months or so, there will be no market, because no-one has gil.

Aha but you can craft and repair your own gear, right?

Yes you can, however crafting costs gil. Also Dark Matter costs gil. You can spend seals on the Dark Matter, however there is a problem with that. in order to earn seals, you have to run FATES etc. By running those FATES, you incur a durability loss, which in itself has to be paid for. So by earning enough seals to cover enough Dark Matter for a full repair (about 60 FATES), you are investing time into the game. 60 FATES will equate to a whole evening for most people. So you end up in a cycle of taking up all your time doing FATES, just so you can repair your gear. But to what end? Why do this, when you have no time to do anything else? You might as well stand around in Ul'Dah doing nothing, thereby not playing the game at all.

So therein lies the problem. The economy in this game is borked. Unless Square Enix fixes this, no-one will be able to afford player housing, which supposedly will be up to 3x the amount of gil you earn doing 1-50. The situation is fucked, and we're all doomed.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:23 pm 
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1. You need to post this up on the official site if you haven't already.

2. Depending on class, you can wade into fates or dungeons and clear them without taking a single scratch. Sure, you still lose durability, but even with a full set of broke-ass armour, you can still make bank without having to worry about how fucked yiur clothes are.

3. Major updates every 3 months? I'd say an increase in gil rewards will be in there.

4. You can reduce teleportation costs by spending a few guild points, which we already have ready to use.

Overall I agree, but I'd say to see what's coming around Christmas time...

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Uh ohs.

So they need to up the output on FATEs and LEVEs?


I'd be worried that even if they fix general quest outputs that anyone at lvl50 would miss out.

Any suggestions?


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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Leves would be viable if you were able to do more than 6 per day. At the moment, the allowance is woeful.

FATEs at this present time, only earn you about 50 gil per FATE, even at level 50. Dark Matter III, which is what you need for full repairs, costs about 5000 gil for enough to do a full repair. Even if you exchanged seals for Dark Matter, you still have to pay for being able to do the FATEs.

Dungeons cost gil to run, since every skill you activate incurs a durability hit, regardless of whether you die or not.

Like I said, there is no income at level 50, except for the marketplace, but eventually no-one will have the gil to shop there.

The server economy is a false economy, one whereby everyone loses eventually.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Final Fantasy XI has been going for eleven years, pretty sure Squeenix knows how to run an online economy. It was just the game itself they had trouble with this time.

I think y'all nigz just be freaking out early before the game has gathered pace. Give it time, lets see what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:03 pm 
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Give it time would be a viable argument if there were no so many people running around flat broke.

Having a means of making gil is paramount, and is a basic omission from this game. You can't say that Square Enix never foresaw this, because like you say, they've been running FFXI for like, 11 or 12 years. I can't accept "Give it time" as a viable argument, because I am playing this game in the now, not 3 months down the line. I am down to my last 17k gil. That aint going to last me until next week, let alone xmas. Perhaps your perception is clouded because you still have quests to do, which reward you in gil to a positive effect. Wait til you are 50 and start looking at 5k repairs and no quests to earn gil off. You'll see what a big problem it is.

Other games have monsters drop money, in fact just about every other game, except this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:05 pm 
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Have you reached level 50 in all classes and skills?

popcorn.gif

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:09 pm 
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Class quests come about every 5 levels. In order to get those, you need to earn said levels. Those class quests earn perhaps 200gil a pop. Not economically viable.

Essentially the only viable means of keeping in the money is by creating new characters and feeding the gil from those to your main character. This ups the subscription costs, and increases the time necessary to play. The only winners there are SquEnix.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Not quite.

Basic entry level sub allows 1 character per world, max 8 worlds.

That aside, start a new character, get job classes every 2 levels, do fates and leves inbetween, all the while making money while repair costs are a minimum. Christ, I can go for two or three levels without needing to repair anything, and buying armour from the markets is cost efficient too if done every five levels.

As for the market, until everyone hits max levels across the board, there will always be customers for low level equipment.

I have less than a grand, but I'm not worried on account of I'm clever with my money.

But I agree that the gil output needs reviewing. Have you posted this up anywhere else?

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:30 pm 
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This has been posted up on the official boards many times by many people, but the threads get shot down by fanboy white knights. It's been posted on gamer escape and a few other places too. I was reading quite a long thread about it the other day.

But I shit you not dude. When you get your gear up to level 45 or 50 quality, the repair costs go up exponentially. You can't make the comparison between level 30 and level 50. It seems to work in a completely different manner, I can't quite put my finger on it.

My best advice is, if you're sitting on 100k+ at level 30, which I was at one point, don't for the love of god spend it! You won't ever get it back once you're out of quests.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:42 pm 
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I was saying to G just now in-game, that there are barriers in place which stop aspirations of lifting yourself out of in-game poverty clean in their tracks.

For example. If you want to make gil as a miner, you can't sell the ores for more than the vendor price on the market. So you need to be a blacksmith or armourer to create ingots, on top of leveling your gathering.

So using the example of bronze bars -your earliest opportunity to make gil, you need to create ingots, which require 2 copper, 1 tin, and an ice shard to create. Now, looking at the market, these are selling for 40g each, so a stack of 99 will be 3960g. So if you mine 2000 copper, 1000 tin and 1000 ice shards, you can make 1000 ingots, yielding a potential profit of 40k. Thing is, that takes hours to mine and a stack of bars will take 20-25 mins to make. 10 stacks will take 200 mins or more to create...

See the problem? Even if you were not undercut, that 40k gil will take days to make, and only if you can invest 12 hours a day gathering and crafting. If you can't invest hardcore time into crafting, you're basically shafted. And what happens if you're undercut by 2/3? Yup you have to gather more and craft more.

Its bullshit, and the poorer people get, the less money you can make, because prices remain chronicly low.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:09 pm 
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God forbid they actually give you incentive to try other stuff, eh? I see where you're coming from, but shit, that last post sounded more like "I just want to experience the 2% of the game I want and fuck the rest".

You just said that you can make profit and then complained about it, I believe because it ain't what you want to do.

Shit son, I plan to milk the everloving piss out of this game, so what you just said there is fine by me. It sounds like you want instant gratification without working for it. Everything else I've agreed with, but that last post just sounded "I want it all and CBA working for it".

Sorry and all...

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Dude you're missing the point. In order to milk the shit out of this game, you need gil. If you can't make gil, then you're fucked. If you think that you can do everything on a couple of thousand gil, then good luck to you, but you're mistaken.

I want to do everything just the same as you, but my perception isn't blinkered by it being dressed up as Final Fantasy. It first and foremost is an MMORPG, it is not really a FF game. As an MMORPG, there are critical things which are wrong, and 15 or so years experience as a player of MMORPGS tells me this.

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Dude, just cos it FF doesn't mean I can't see its bad points. FF8, FF13, FF10, all just polished turds, and FFVII is just overrated pap.

All I'm saying is that you can't expect everything right off the bat, and some things have to be worked at hardstyle.

Also, repair costs reduced.

http://m.craveonline.com/gaming/article ... -much-more

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 Post subject: Re: Server Economics & you! Why Square Enix needs to fix it
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
All I'm saying is that you can't expect everything right off the bat, and some things have to be worked at hardstyle.


I couldn't agree more, I said the exact same thing earlier. But does that not exclude all but say, 15% of the player base? So what you're basically saying is, "if you don't have 50+ hours to spend on this game in a week, then get fucked", right?

If Square Enix does not sort out the earning potential of it's players, then this is exactly the sort of mechanic which will kill off the game before it's even really off the ground. The changes they made knocked 2000gil off full repair costs for a level 50, but they still cost 3000gil. The problem is still there, because they have not done enough. 3000gil for repairs still means you have to spend all of your time earning the money, and none of your time playing through content.

By content I mean new content. You know, raids, hard modes, and the like. I would have thought SE would want us to see that shit, but it seems not to be the case.

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