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 Post subject: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:43 pm 
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I have thought about making this thread for awhile and seeing what Carl posted on Facebook finally made me want to post about this.

So today there was a stabbing at a school in Pennsylvanian and if you want to know more about what happened Click here. What a tragic thing to happen at a school. Those kids that were involved are never going to be the same after what they went though but lets be glad that it was just a stabbing and not a shooting. If this was a shooting the people that were injured might be dead. Sure, the teen that went on a stabbing spree could have killed those people with his knives but it seems he was trying to create more harm than actually kill anybody but that isn't the point of this thread at all. The point in this thread is to have a serious gun debate. I'll start this thread off with my opinion on guns and then we can go from there.

First off I am pro gun. I know, I pro gun republican what a shocker. Now, I don't own a firearm but I tend to own an array of riffles and handguns in the future. I have always been interesting in weapons ever since I was a little kid and knowing more about them, the history behind them, and how to safely use them interests me. As an American I am blessed with the ability to be able to be able to purchase a firearm and if I don't like the way a state has its gun laws I can move to a different state such as the glorious state of Vermont. Now some of you at this point are probably thinking Joey, why do you want/ need a firearm? Good question person who asked that! I want a firearm because it is my 2nd amendment right here in the United States of America. My 2nd amendment right to protect myself from a tyrannical government. I want a firearm so that I can protect myself and the people around me that I care about. I also want a firearm so that people around me that do not like weapons can familiarize themselves with a firearm and learn how to use them safely.

Now Joey, the government is going to come after you and be all tyrannical you are just talking crazy! I bet if the founding father of the United States thought that we would still be apart of England and who knows how the world would be today. With the way the world is today shit can hit the fan at any moment and knowing how to use a firearm properly and being a owner of a firearm you can protect yourself and others around you. Speaking of protecting myself and the people around me, with owning a firearm I can protect myself and the people around me that I care about. It is the middle of the night and you are fast asleep. Suddenly you are woken up by the sound of glass breaking and you hear footsteps and doors being opened. Someone who you don't know is in your house. An intruder has entered your house. Having a firearm you can protect yourself and the people around you from this intruder. Every second counts when someone you don't know is in your house. You don't know if they are armed or what there objective is. They can just be trying to rob you or they can be out to kill. Having a firearm I can shoot to kill the intruder if necessary. You maybe thinking well just call the cops in a scenario like that and yes that is the first thing you do but depending on how close the police department is to your house it is going to take between 20-30min for them to get to your house and like I said every second counts. In that time you can be killed by an intruder and now the police have to deal with bodies but if you had a firearm they would only have to deal with the body of the intruder.

Now with that out of the way lets talk about different type of firearms. People always bring up in gun debates is why do people need "Assault Riffles" and I am going to say this. First off there is no such thing as an assault riffle. They are called modern sporting riffles. Having modern weapons are desired to have for home protection because they are going to be the best for defending yourself. Sure, handguns can get the job done but if you need more power you go for a modern sporting riffle. These modern riffles are used for hunting as we all know and like I said are great for personal home defense. Another reason for civilians to own modern firearms is if a government becomes tyrannical. To be able to fight against the government you will need riffles just like what they are going to be coming at you with because handguns alone will not do much in fighting back. Now lets get into the types of weapons you can buy. You can get full automatic weapons in the US but they are highly and I mean HIGHLY regulated by the government. If you want to get such a gun you need to have a class 3 firearm license and you need to be in a state that allows ownership of a class 3 weapon. This yahoo answers explains it the best. When people think fully automatic weapons they think of the AR-15 riffle and they say IT IS AN AR-15 ASSAULT RIFFLE BECAUSE THE AR MEANS ASSAULT RIFFLE! The AR in the AR-15 name means Armalite. The AR-15 was modeled after the M16 and is the civilian version of the weapon. The riffle only comes in semi-automatic fire only and automatic versions of the guns were made for government but that was back in 59. There are some models that you can actually get but they are expensive as fuck and very rare. It really isn't worth it because when you are in a fire fight you aren't going to be using full auto since your shots are not going to be accurate. Soldiers on the front lines use 3 round burst or semi-automatic. The only reason for using full auto is for gunning down a crowd of people but in a full on fire fight it isn't needed. Another yahoo answers that explains it the best.

The last thing I want to talk about is the crime rate with firearms. Crime with firearms has been going down through out the years. People in politics make it seem that it is the end of the world and that firearms should be off the street because of all the killings but with less firearms more crime will be committed. Here are some sources on gun crime Source 1 Full FBI crime report for 2012 The 2013 report will be out by the end of the year. Majority of murders committed in the US were used with handguns and shotgun and riffle. Now that is just a national average. Now what they don't tell you how the firearms were used and if they were justifiable muders. Gang violence is a major issues here in the US and especially in Chicago where a lot of gang violence occurs but you don't hear about that on national and international news. What you are hearing are shooting committed by mentally ill people that are easily targeting what I like to call "easy places" so that they can get there name in the lime light and the democratic media blows it up and says we have a gun control issues and says we need to get guns out of the hands of people! When they have no clue on what they are talking about. this "Gun Control" issue is a mental illness issue. The people that are going out committing these mass shootings are mentally unstable and it could have been prevented if that individual was treated but instead of dealing with a mental health issue they want to take firearms away and that isn't going to solve anything and I am looking at you UK. Source Yeah the article is old but it just proves that just because you "banned" firearms doesn't mean it is going to make you safer. Plus you still have firearms still on the street and people are using them to murder people. If everything was so perfect your cops wouldn't need body armor.

To TL;DR this for people firearms will make the world safer not make it a murdering platform for people to go crazy shooting everyone in sight.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:46 pm 
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To combat obesity, we should give people more food.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:26 pm 
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Guess what? Guns are illegal in Canada (though hunting licenses are allowed), and our crime rates are far better than yours are, even in our metropolitan areas.

Guns are never the answer. No one should ever be allowed to own one. I don't care what the reason is for it.

I'd go a step further and say you want a gun so you can hunt, go to another country. We don't want any guns here.

Also, your country's idiotic lack of gun control is the primary reason weapons make it into cities my country, which is IMO unforgiveable.

The US needs to crack down on guns now, but good luck doing it since you put it in your fucking constitution.

You belong to a nation founded on violence, that's happy to do nothing to address stopping it, and yet no one can understand why they cannot quell it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:34 pm 
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The cold hard truth of the matter is Americans value their right to carry a deadly weapon more than they do other American lives.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:51 pm 
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Well it's at a point now where I honestly don't feel safe even carrying my knife. I have rifles at home, but they never leave the house because they're fucking rifles. If I had a handgun, I'd keep it in my car, and I want one. The area I live in isn't bad at all compared to where I was raised, Chattanooga.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:18 am 
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I'll address this when I'm not on my phone but I have this to say:

I was impressed that you actually provided support for your argument with sources. But then you undermined that by citing YAHOO FUCKING ANSWERS.


Seriously?

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:49 am 
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You also cite the Daily Mail as a source for European crime rates, which is a bit of an issue in itself - I'm not even going to go into the fact that you're comparing the US to a country that has literally one fifth of its population. Comparisons of countrywide crime rates per capita achieve nothing in carrying an argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:07 am 
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Didn't even see that. Oh dear Joey. You just quoted the closest thing the UK has to Fox News, but with the added repeated sexualisation of children.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:13 am 
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I'm frankly more worried about people owning cars than guns.

I live in one of the cities with the highest gun violence rates per capita.

There has not been a single moment where I've feared anything here, EXCEPT when around others driving.

Guns aren't the problem. Fucking people are, let's address the shitty society, and I guarantee violence will drop immensely.

But no, we live in an era with zero personal responsibility and accountability, so let's not shame and punish fuck-ups.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:18 pm 
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It should be noted that everything I say from this point onwards is my opinion, some of it is backed up with research and statistics but it my opinion nonetheless.

Guns are products produced with the sole purpose of ending the life of another living being or seriously injuring it. I don't think products produced with that purpose should be made available to the public in any way shape or form. First of all I'll address the issue of mass public shootings and Joey's perception that "it's a mental illness issue", then I'll respond to his claim that "with the way the world is today shit can hit the fan at any moment."

The fact of the matter is, the harder you make it for guns to get into the hands of people that want to use them, the less likely they are to get their hands on them and use them. In 1996, thirty five people were killed in Australia during a shooting spree and as a result they seriously clamped down on gun ownership, offering a buy-back program which saw over 600,000 guns destroyed.

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What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

- Oremus, W (2010) "After a 1996 Mass Shooting, Australia Enacted Strict Gun Laws. It Hasn't Had a Similar Massacre Since."

The paragraph following the one quoted above goes some way in debunking any claims that "gun violence was on the decline anyway."

To say that this ""Gun Control" issue is a mental illness issue" (Joey, 2014), is nothing more than scapegoating. Mental health is a vast and complicated problem that is not an easy-fix. It will take decades, if not more to properly establish a framework for treating mental health issues, and given your lack of universal healthcare I can't see it ever becoming something that is readily available to those in need of it most, but that's another issue entirely.

What I'd do? Ban guns (or heavily, heavily restrict ownership as a blanket ban would never work in a culture as fetishist as the USA's) and then work on establishing the framework to provide mental health assistance to those in need of it.


"With the way the world is today shit can hit the fan at any moment."

My response to this is pretty simple: What scenarios are you envisaging when you say this? This isn't a rhetorical question, I want an answer to it as its a horrifically vague statement that essentially allows you to facilitate any argument you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:53 pm 
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To the idea that the harder you make it for someone to get their hands on something, the less likely they are to use it -wasn't that what Prohibition was about? Isn't that what the whole "War on Drugs" is about? Shit, online piracy tends to turn that argument on its ear all by itself. If people want something bad enough, they'll figure out how to get it. The only way your philosophy works at all is to shut down all gun manufacturers, and even then, you'll have the firearm equivalent of hillbilly moonshiners.

Sean is right, the problem isn't the availability of guns (at least, it's not the major problem), it's people.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Smokey wrote:
If people want something bad enough, they'll figure out how to get it.


Well Joe already posted the figures to disprove that, right?

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

Cause and effect if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:15 pm 
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You will never, ever, eradicate gun crime.

But you reduce the everloving shit out of it.

Question is, do you value your guns or your lives more?

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:28 pm 
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Ax wrote:
Smokey wrote:
If people want something bad enough, they'll figure out how to get it.


Well Joe already posted the figures to disprove that, right?

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

Cause and effect if you ask me.


I'd tend to think that Australians are too worried about nature trying to murder them to go murdering other people, as a rule. Nothing he's said undercuts the actual historical examples of his philosophy failing catastrophically here in the States.

Blokeh, the way you reduce crime in general is to teach people how to be decent fucking human beings. Removing a tool that a terrible person might use is treating the symptom, not the disease. Until that person learns how to be something other than a waste of space, he's gonna figure out new ways to be terrible to other people.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Debate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:46 pm 
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I totally agree, Smokes. I genuinely agree.

But having read that article about the woman who breast fed her baby to death (according to retarded-ass lawyers), knowing about folk like the Phelps family, and that people actually put bacon into donuts, then I have so little faith in humanity wishing to become "decent people" that I think they could use having their main source of being violent bastards taken away from them.

Essentially, the human race is an incurable - but manageable - disease.

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