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Empire or Jedi
The Empire Strikes Back 50%  50%  [ 5 ]
Return Of The Jedi 50%  50%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 10
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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:51 am 
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Okay, Blokeh, this is fairly common knowledge, so inb4duhIknewthat, but you do know that the Falcon belonged to Lando before Han won it from him in sabaac, right? Besides, Lando and even the Falcon are superfluous in that scene, considering that most of what the Falcon did was play meatshield and lose an antenna in a tight spot. It could have been just Jim and his rusty trash hauler following Wedge in to blow up the Death Star, and the scene would have been just as epic.

I wasn't aware of the last remake until this thread, but even so, that doesn't lessen RotJ in my eyes. Matter of fact, I applaud Lucasfilm wanting to try and maintain continuity, even if it was after the fact and the original actor could have remained cast as the middle-aged Anakin. I'm looking at the intent rather than the admittedly poor decision itself.

Also, I fucking lol'd at the tag for one of those pics: "Daniel Craig in Goldeneye reminds me of Hayden Christensen in Return Of The Jedi". Even as I raged inside.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:16 am 
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Yeah, I know it used to be Lando's ship, considering Han even says "Hey, I won her fair and square..." in TESB, but still, some things just don't sit right...

Luke using a green lightsaber... (yes I know he lost his father's blue one when Vader cut his hand off, but still...) Han shooting first... some things shouldn't ever be changed, y'know? Its like when Michael Owen signed for Man Utd. Ask any Liverpool fan how it felt to see him in a Man Utd strip. It just didn't feel right.

Also, what fucking continuity?!? People argue "Oh, but the last time Anakin was a good guy was as a young man, not the old dude. BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. Anakin was ALWAYS good. He just... had issues. And right at the very end of ROTJ, he fucking proved it by saving not only his children, but the entire frigging galaxy. And what does Lucas do with the saviour of the known universe?

HE REPLACES HIM WITH A FUCKING EMO FAGGOT.

No way man. Don't even try to defend that shit. I *will* hurt you.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:25 pm 
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If they'd kept the original script for Jedi, where Fett is chasing them until the end, and Han dies halfway through, it would have the same impact as Empire.

As it is, Empire every time. I prefer the tone. I don't even mind Ewoks that much, I just like watching the Empire win.

Aw, Dr Cox was nice to Reed. Beautiful moment.

What was I saying?
Oh yeah, Fett for the win.


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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:03 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
Yeah, I know it used to be Lando's ship, considering Han even says "Hey, I won her fair and square..." in TESB, but still, some things just don't sit right...

Luke using a green lightsaber... (yes I know he lost his father's blue one when Vader cut his hand off, but still...) Han shooting first... some things shouldn't ever be changed, y'know? Its like when Michael Owen signed for Man Utd. Ask any Liverpool fan how it felt to see him in a Man Utd strip. It just didn't feel right.


Well, that's just you being a contrary douche. :P

Blokeymon wrote:
Also, what fucking continuity?!? People argue "Oh, but the last time Anakin was a good guy was as a young man, not the old dude. BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. Anakin was ALWAYS good. He just... had issues. And right at the very end of ROTJ, he fucking proved it by saving not only his children, but the entire frigging galaxy. And what does Lucas do with the saviour of the known universe?

HE REPLACES HIM WITH A FUCKING EMO FAGGOT.

No way man. Don't even try to defend that shit. I *will* hurt you.


When I say "continuity", I mean that it's possible to watch Star Wars all the way through, 1-6, and when you reach the end and see Anakin, Yoda, and Obi-wan, you could get confused by middle-aged Anakin and think "Who the fuck is that guy?". Granted, it's fucked up, and only kids who haven't lrnd2StarWars would get confused by that, but Lucas has ALWAYS been about making the Star Wars universe more accessible to everyone.

And no, Anakin WASN'T always good. No matter where the Star Wars lore has gone in its exploration of the Force, one thing has always remained constant: when you go Sith, you're a bad guy. Redemption is possible, but until that point, you're not good by ANY measure. I defy you to contradict this.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:46 pm 
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I'm not really bothered about all this faggotry, but I wouldn't quantify the slaughter of younglings as having 'issues'

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:06 pm 
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Smokey wrote:
And no, Anakin WASN'T always good. No matter where the Star Wars lore has gone in its exploration of the Force, one thing has always remained constant: when you go Sith, you're a bad guy. Redemption is possible, but until that point, you're not good by ANY measure. I defy you to contradict this.


Jedis can sense peoples feelings and emotions, right? Like "I can sense the fear flowing through you" and all that, correct?

Doesn't Luke at one point say "There is still good in him, I can feel it"?

To me, that proves that Vader does indeed retain some of his good side, although its not like he takes in stray kittens or such shit, because a Jedi has sensed it.

Unless, of course, y'know, Luke isn't a Jedi. In which case, you'd be right.

Your move, asshat. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:28 pm 
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All good points to be honest. Empire was a lot more darker, Return got a great deal lighter for some reason (Typically in a trilogy the final is the darkest to emphasize how desperate the situation is).

As for the hating on that Emo fag being edited into the ending of Return, I was immensely pissed off with that, I mean Hayden ruined the 2nd and 3rd film beyond recognition (There were other terrible things but he was a main point).

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
Smokey wrote:
And no, Anakin WASN'T always good. No matter where the Star Wars lore has gone in its exploration of the Force, one thing has always remained constant: when you go Sith, you're a bad guy. Redemption is possible, but until that point, you're not good by ANY measure. I defy you to contradict this.


Jedis can sense peoples feelings and emotions, right? Like "I can sense the fear flowing through you" and all that, correct?

Doesn't Luke at one point say "There is still good in him, I can feel it"?

To me, that proves that Vader does indeed retain some of his good side, although its not like he takes in stray kittens or such shit, because a Jedi has sensed it.

Unless, of course, y'know, Luke isn't a Jedi. In which case, you'd be right.

Your move, asshat. 8-)


First, point of order, the plural is Jedi. It's like moose. Word doesn't change with numbers. (/nitpick)

I never said there wasn't ANY good in him. That's what makes Vader redeemable. He did not stay good all through Star Wars, though. The second Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious and Anakin still decided to follow him, he stopped being good. He became a bad guy. There is no such thing as a good Sith.

Smiler, I don't know what trilogies you're referencing, but the second installment is generally the darkest. Unless it's a story where the author intentionally means for evil to ultimately triumph, the final installment is always gonna be lighter than the previous one, because the bad guy goes down, the hero gets the girl, the good guys win, and a new, brighter future is in the making. Been that way since the inception of storytelling.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Smokey wrote:
Blokeymon wrote:
Smokey wrote:
And no, Anakin WASN'T always good. No matter where the Star Wars lore has gone in its exploration of the Force, one thing has always remained constant: when you go Sith, you're a bad guy. Redemption is possible, but until that point, you're not good by ANY measure. I defy you to contradict this.


Jedis can sense peoples feelings and emotions, right? Like "I can sense the fear flowing through you" and all that, correct?

Doesn't Luke at one point say "There is still good in him, I can feel it"?

To me, that proves that Vader does indeed retain some of his good side, although its not like he takes in stray kittens or such shit, because a Jedi has sensed it.

Unless, of course, y'know, Luke isn't a Jedi. In which case, you'd be right.

Your move, asshat. 8-)


First, point of order, the plural is Jedi. It's like moose. Word doesn't change with numbers. (/nitpick)

I never said there wasn't ANY good in him. That's what makes Vader redeemable. He did not stay good all through Star Wars, though. The second Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious and Anakin still decided to follow him, he stopped being good. He became a bad guy. There is no such thing as a good Sith.

Smiler, I don't know what trilogies you're referencing, but the second installment is generally the darkest. Unless it's a story where the author intentionally means for evil to ultimately triumph, the final installment is always gonna be lighter than the previous one, because the bad guy goes down, the hero gets the girl, the good guys win, and a new, brighter future is in the making. Been that way since the inception of storytelling.


Two popular trilogy's where the 3rd film was darker?

Pirates of the Caribbean, don't argue, the opening is that of hanging pirates including a child, in a Disney film, that's dark.
Lord of The Rings, that got real dark for its context, at least in the book.

And yes the good guy gets the girl and crap, but that's at the end of the film, not the start or middle.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:32 pm 
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SmilerAl wrote:
Smokey wrote:
Blokeymon wrote:
Jedis can sense peoples feelings and emotions, right? Like "I can sense the fear flowing through you" and all that, correct?

Doesn't Luke at one point say "There is still good in him, I can feel it"?

To me, that proves that Vader does indeed retain some of his good side, although its not like he takes in stray kittens or such shit, because a Jedi has sensed it.

Unless, of course, y'know, Luke isn't a Jedi. In which case, you'd be right.

Your move, asshat. 8-)


First, point of order, the plural is Jedi. It's like moose. Word doesn't change with numbers. (/nitpick)

I never said there wasn't ANY good in him. That's what makes Vader redeemable. He did not stay good all through Star Wars, though. The second Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious and Anakin still decided to follow him, he stopped being good. He became a bad guy. There is no such thing as a good Sith.

Smiler, I don't know what trilogies you're referencing, but the second installment is generally the darkest. Unless it's a story where the author intentionally means for evil to ultimately triumph, the final installment is always gonna be lighter than the previous one, because the bad guy goes down, the hero gets the girl, the good guys win, and a new, brighter future is in the making. Been that way since the inception of storytelling.


Two popular trilogy's where the 3rd film was darker?

Pirates of the Caribbean, don't argue, the opening is that of hanging pirates including a child, in a Disney film, that's dark.
Lord of The Rings, that got real dark for its context, at least in the book.

And yes the good guy gets the girl and crap, but that's at the end of the film, not the start or middle.


You can't use Pirates 'cause it's not a trilogy. There are more movies coming. As for LotR, the question wasn't "What trilogies are you referencing where the beginning/middle of the final installment was darker than the beginning/middle of the previous installment?". You take each installment in its entirety, and Return of the King was DEFINITELY not darker than The Two Towers. No way in hell.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Can't count Star Wars as a trilogy as there were six films.

:P

Also;

Quote:
The second Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious and Anakin still decided to follow him, he stopped being good. He became a bad guy. There is no such thing as a good Sith.

Why did he decide to follow Sidious? Hmmm? What reason did Anakin have to follow an evil man? What was he hoping to achieve?

And when he went to kill the Younglings... did he look like he was really going to enjoy himself? Was he psyched up to fuck about slaughtering some kids?

In case you're struggling to answer the above;

1. To save the woman he loved.
2. No, he was visibly upset at what he had been told to do.

It wasn't until after he was told Padme was dead that he went truly evil, because he thought he'd lost everything he fought so hard to protect. So, what else to do other than direct all that hatred into killing?

But as Luke knew, Vader still had some little bit of decency and humanity inside him. He just didn't have any reason to show it.

Until his son was in danger of being killed, at which point he sacrificed himself to save him.

Only the very last act was redemption. There was a time when the man known as Darth Vader was a person being forced to do evil things to try and save a helpless woman and her unborn child.

A Jedi would have just sat back and let it happen because, well, thats what Jedi do. They don't interfere.

Edmund Burke, a great philosopher, once wrote:
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.'


Makes you wonder who were truly the more evil...

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
Can't count Star Wars as a trilogy as there were six films.

:P

Also;

Quote:
The second Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious and Anakin still decided to follow him, he stopped being good. He became a bad guy. There is no such thing as a good Sith.

Why did he decide to follow Sidious? Hmmm? What reason did Anakin have to follow an evil man? What was he hoping to achieve?

And when he went to kill the Younglings... did he look like he was really going to enjoy himself? Was he psyched up to fuck about slaughtering some kids?

In case you're struggling to answer the above;

1. To save the woman he loved.
2. No, he was visibly upset at what he had been told to do.

It wasn't until after he was told Padme was dead that he went truly evil, because he thought he'd lost everything he fought so hard to protect. So, what else to do other than direct all that hatred into killing?

But as Luke knew, Vader still had some little bit of decency and humanity inside him. He just didn't have any reason to show it.

Until his son was in danger of being killed, at which point he sacrificed himself to save him.

Only the very last act was redemption. There was a time when the man known as Darth Vader was a person being forced to do evil things to try and save a helpless woman and her unborn child.

A Jedi would have just sat back and let it happen because, well, thats what Jedi do. They don't interfere.

Edmund Burke, a great philosopher, once wrote:
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.'


Makes you wonder who were truly the more evil...


Oh come on, just because he's not cackling with glee at cutting down the younglings doesn't make him a good guy. The fact remains that he cut down the younglings. That means he's a bad guy. Anakin WAS manipulated into following Sidious. He wasn't FORCED to do anything. He could have helped Windu when he fought Sidious and made his choice right then. He DID make the choice, and he followed Sidious' orders, if not in a totally willing fashion, then certainly without question. That doesn't scream "good guy" to me.

Also, Jedi don't interfere with just laws based on whims and personal beliefs. Jedi uphold justice and the law, and involve themselves when directed by the Force and the Jedi Council when something aberrant pops up and starts ruining people's lives. Jedi exist to serve the common good. Sith exist to ultimately serve themselves, no matter their intentions going in.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:16 pm 
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You guys are sad. :?

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
You guys are sad. :?


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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:37 pm 
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Smokey wrote:
Oh come on, just because he's not cackling with glee at cutting down the younglings doesn't make him a good guy. The fact remains that he cut down the younglings. That means he's a bad guy. Anakin WAS manipulated into following Sidious. He wasn't FORCED to do anything. He could have helped Windu when he fought Sidious and made his choice right then. He DID make the choice, and he followed Sidious' orders, if not in a totally willing fashion, then certainly without question. That doesn't scream "good guy" to me.

Also, Jedi don't interfere with just laws based on whims and personal beliefs. Jedi uphold justice and the law, and involve themselves when directed by the Force and the Jedi Council when something aberrant pops up and starts ruining people's lives. Jedi exist to serve the common good. Sith exist to ultimately serve themselves, no matter their intentions going in.

Anakin be all crying and shit when he enters the school. He knows its wrong, and he doesn't want to, but he has only one thing on his mind - saving the life of his wife and child. Certainly not a good guy, certainly not the right thing to do, and he knows this. But he's only thinking of his own family. Evil? No. Misguided? Definitely.

Don't disagree with the Sith being a selfish bunch, but while Vader was indeed selfish, all he wanted to do was protect his family - at any cost. A noble and loving idea, with only the steps taken being evil.

Hence, he wasn't evil prior to Padme's death, and once he learned of Luke's existence, decided to go against the orders to kill him, and instead tried to do everything he could to keep him alive. Turning him to the dark side? Bad idea. But it'd save the life of his son...

Therefore, Vader = not evil.

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