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Empire or Jedi
The Empire Strikes Back 50%  50%  [ 5 ]
Return Of The Jedi 50%  50%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 10
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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Blokeymon wrote:
Smokey wrote:
Oh come on, just because he's not cackling with glee at cutting down the younglings doesn't make him a good guy. The fact remains that he cut down the younglings. That means he's a bad guy. Anakin WAS manipulated into following Sidious. He wasn't FORCED to do anything. He could have helped Windu when he fought Sidious and made his choice right then. He DID make the choice, and he followed Sidious' orders, if not in a totally willing fashion, then certainly without question. That doesn't scream "good guy" to me.

Also, Jedi don't interfere with just laws based on whims and personal beliefs. Jedi uphold justice and the law, and involve themselves when directed by the Force and the Jedi Council when something aberrant pops up and starts ruining people's lives. Jedi exist to serve the common good. Sith exist to ultimately serve themselves, no matter their intentions going in.

Anakin be all crying and shit when he enters the school. He knows its wrong, and he doesn't want to, but he has only one thing on his mind - saving the life of his wife and child. Certainly not a good guy, certainly not the right thing to do, and he knows this. But he's only thinking of his own family. Evil? No. Misguided? Definitely.

Don't disagree with the Sith being a selfish bunch, but while Vader was indeed selfish, all he wanted to do was protect his family - at any cost. A noble and loving idea, with only the steps taken being evil.

Hence, he wasn't evil prior to Padme's death, and once he learned of Luke's existence, decided to go against the orders to kill him, and instead tried to do everything he could to keep him alive. Turning him to the dark side? Bad idea. But it'd save the life of his son...

Therefore, Vader = not evil.


"At any cost"? In abstract, it's a nice expression to show people your resolve in accomplishing at task. In practice...well, the only people in the real world that accomplish something "at any cost" are sociopaths and fanatics. Anakin is not doing what he does to save his family. He's doing it to gain power that he can use to save his family, which is a dark side motive, thus he's a bad guy. If you want to really explore and understand the difference, go to the library and read the Legacy of the Force series. It details the steps of a Jedi's path to the Sith quite clearly, and I sincerely doubt you'll still be taking the position you're taking now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Smokey wrote:
Anakin is not doing what he does to save his family. He's doing it to gain power that he can use to save his family

So... the outcome of each branch is different how?

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:08 pm 
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well, say what you want about Anakin, but one thing is for sure, that bitch can podrace like a motherfucker.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Joe wrote:
well, say what you want about Anakin, but one thing is for sure, that bitch can podrace like a motherfucker.

Y'know what.

Fuck it.

Screw the arguing.

Lets just all sing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:30 am 
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Blokeymon wrote:
Smokey wrote:
Anakin is not doing what he does to save his family. He's doing it to gain power that he can use to save his family

So... the outcome of each branch is different how?


In the first scenario, Anakin would be reacting to his family being in danger, he'd save them, he did a good thing, end of. In the second scenario, he's not immediately going to his family's rescue, he's putting his own needs ahead of them. That begins a cycle, a couple of them, actually. Selfish actions become more and more acceptable to him, even without the added benefit of helping someone else. But then, using selfish motives to protect what you see as yours eventually leads to bigger, more harmful actions in order to protect what's yours against perceived threats. Eventually, you forget that you were originally protecting something, and now you're just doing things to assert your authority and to punish others for questioning it, even if they didn't intend to.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:38 am 
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The flaw in Smokey's logic is that he's implying that acting for the greater good is ALWAYS good, and acting to benefit oneself is ALWAYS bad.

I'm with Blokey on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: The Empire Strikes Back vs Return Of The Jedi
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:01 am 
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HGW XX/7 wrote:
The flaw in Smokey's logic is that he's implying that acting for the greater good is ALWAYS good, and acting to benefit oneself is ALWAYS bad.

I'm with Blokey on this one.


I'm not implying that at all. In the Legacy of the Force series, the particular Jedi I referenced earlier justified his actions (numbering authoritarian suppression of the populace, secret police, even escalating to hunting down and torturing his loved ones) by saying that he was bringing order to the galaxy for the ultimate benefit of all as well as his daughter. Eventually, he stopped justifying his actions and began acting to punish others who questioned his will. That's exactly what Vader became, and I guarantee you that whenever someone gets around to writing Sidious' story, that's almost exactly what it will be.

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