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 Post subject: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:39 pm 
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Thread inspired by the Snyder v Westboro debacle.

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YORK, Pa. – Some nights Albert Snyder wakes up at 3 a.m. Other nights he doesn't sleep at all, tormented by thoughts of the hateful signs carried by a fundamentalist church outside his Marine son's funeral.

"Thank God for Dead Soldiers."

"You're Going to Hell."

"Semper Fi Fags."

Hundreds of grieving families have been targeted by the Westboro Baptist Church, which believes military deaths are the work of a wrathful God who punishes the United States for tolerating homosexuality.

Most mourners try to ignore the taunts. But Snyder couldn't let it go. He became the first to sue the church to halt the demonstrations, and he's pursued the group farther than anyone else.

Now, more than four years after his son died in a Humvee accident in Iraq, Snyder's legal battle is headed to the Supreme Court. And his tireless efforts have drawn support from across the country, including a wave of donations after he was ordered to pay the church's court costs — a $16,500 judgment that the congregation plans to use for more protests.

Lance Cpl. Matthew A. Snyder, 20, was not gay. But for the Westboro church, any dead soldier is fair game. Pastor Fred Phelps oversees a congregation of 70 to 80 members — mostly his children and grandchildren. They consider themselves prophets, and they insist the nation is doomed.

As Snyder sees it, Westboro isn't engaging in constitutionally protected speech when it pickets funerals. He argues that Phelps and his followers are disrupting private assemblies and harassing people at their most vulnerable — behavior that's an incitement to violence.

"This is more than free speech. This is like yelling, 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. Somebody's going to get hurt," Snyder said, his voice rising and eyes welling with tears.

Snyder's lawsuit accuses the Topeka, Kan., church of invading his privacy and intentionally inflicting emotional distress. He has the backing of his ex-wife and his two daughters, but Snyder insisted on being the only plaintiff.

Except for the 40 hours per week he works selling industrial equipment, the case takes up nearly all his time. He says it's more stressful than a second full-time job.

Snyder, who lives in York, about 85 miles west of Philadelphia, is soft-spoken and polite. But anger and sadness flare up quickly, with little warning. The litigation has forced him to relive the anguish of his son's death, and his grief is still raw.

"It's still very emotional," Snyder said in an interview at his attorney's office. "It's like I constantly relive this every day, and I just wonder sometimes, when this is all over, what I'm going to do with that void. Will the grieving process begin?"

The fight has taken its toll on Snyder's health. The broad-chested 54-year-old has struggled with clinical depression and diabetes.

Snyder fought back against the church in part because he felt Westboro paid special attention to his son. Several weeks after the funeral, the pastor's daughter, Shirley Phelps-Roper, wrote in an online diatribe that Snyder and his ex-wife taught their son "to defy his creator."

Westboro also protests nonmilitary events, such as the 2007 funeral of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, and the deaths of 29 miners last week in West Virginia. The group first grabbed widespread notice in 1998, when members appeared outside the funeral of Matthew Shepard, the gay University of Wyoming student whose murder drew national attention.

Lawyers Sean E. Summers and Craig T. Trebilcock, both military veterans, agreed to take Snyder's case pro bono. They warned him about the emotional toll of a long legal dispute.

Snyder won the first round decisively, when a jury in federal court in Baltimore awarded him $10.9 million in damages in October 2007. A judge later reduced the award to $5 million.

Last September, the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the verdict, ruling Westboro's protest was constitutionally protected speech.

The Supreme Court agreed last month to consider whether the protesters' actions, no matter how provocative and upsetting, are protected by the First Amendment. The case will be argued in the fall.

Then something unexpected happened: The appeals court ordered Snyder to pay Westboro $16,510 in court costs. While it's not unusual for the losing party in a civil case to be required to pay some costs, it rarely happens when an individual sues a private entity, especially when the case is still active, experts say.

Margie Jean Phelps, one of Fred Phelps' daughters and an attorney, will argue the case before the Supreme Court. She has said the church plans to use the money from Snyder to stage more protests. That's what's so upsetting to Snyder, who says he would drop the matter if the church stopped picketing funerals.

Snyder has received plenty of publicity since filing the lawsuit, but interest intensified after the court-ordered payment.

Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly pledged to pay the entire $16,510, and the American Legion has raised more than $20,000. Every day, hundreds of envelopes arrive at Summers' office. Snyder plans to use the money for other court fees and to donate what's left over to veterans.

Not everyone is on Snyder's side, even if they find Westboro's protests loathsome.

They point to the undisputed facts of the case. Westboro contacted police before its protest, which was conducted in a designated area on public land — 1,000 feet from the church where the Mass was held in Westminster, Md.

The protesters — Phelps and six family members — broke no laws. Snyder knew they were present, but he did not see their signs or hear their statements until he turned on the news at his son's wake.

Jonathan M. Turley, a George Washington University law professor, asked his constitutional law class to grapple with the case. At first, the entire class was sympathetic to Snyder. But after they dug deeper, they concluded that Westboro's speech was protected by the First Amendment.

"Once you get down to trying to draw the line between privacy and free speech, it becomes clear that a ruling against Westboro could create the danger of a slippery slope for future courts," Turley said.

Turley, who studies the Supreme Court closely, said it's difficult to predict how the justices will rule.

Phelps-Roper has no doubt the court will favor Westboro. "If that case can prevail, there is no First Amendment left," she said.

Some military families see no reason why such protests cannot be restricted.

"I don't think these people should be allowed to come in and disrupt a family's grief," said Diane Salyers of Sims, Ark., whose son's funeral was picketed by Westboro in 2007. Snyder "speaks for all of us who've been affected by these people."


Okay, so no law was broken outright. But not only is this ridiculously low class, I feel that Snyder has a good point in comparing this to yelling "FIRE" in a theater. It's inviting trouble, specifically the violent kind. I mean, there's not a place where emotions are more unstable than at a funeral. I'm honestly surprised Phelps and Company haven't had their asses kicked by someone that snapped when he heard or saw that shit.

And that decision by the Court of Appeals? I could understand if the court just ruled against Snyder, but ordering him to pay that fine? What the fuck is that? My respect for Papa Bear went up a couple notches when he offered to pay the fine in full. I thought the majority opinion at Fox would be on Westboro's side, to be honest. That surprised me.

This is also a little personal for me, considering that my brother's signed up to be a Marine. He hasn't been deployed yet (hasn't even been to boot camp yet, actually), but I know that if he was killed in action, God forbid, I'd definitely want assurances that the funeral would remain private. Otherwise, if these assholes rolled in and started this, I'd turn Snyder into a prophet.

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Last edited by Smokey on Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Ammendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:57 pm 
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tl:dr
Well i read the first bit, which i feel was enough of it to have the jist
But this is what the world see's religous americans as
But that is so disrespectful it makes me want to jump in a plane and stick an m-16 so far up there arse it protrudes out of their mouths
And he has been ordered to pay the churches court fee's? No justice in their world

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Ammendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:11 pm 
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I don't know if he still has to pay the fine since this case is going on to the Supreme Court in the fall (unless the Supreme Court upholds the CoA's ruling), but yeah, it's still a total bitch move to put that on Snyder in the first place.

And to clarify, Westboro Baptist is DEFINITELY not representative of the Christian church here in America, or even Baptists in general. Like the article says, all but about five people in the 80-member congregation are relatives of the pastor. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that they're all inbred. Even if that's incorrect, this is the only way Westboro can get people to pay attention to them, 'cause sure as hell nobody in the religious community considers these nutjobs to be authorities on ANYTHING.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Ammendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:20 pm 
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That'd be illegal as fuck in Sweden.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Ammendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:37 pm 
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it might be a little extreme but I'd say it's a somewhat accurate portrayal of Christians in America. You can't drive by a Planned Parenthood without seeing a sign of a dead fetus. Hell, just the other day I went to a baseball game and there were dozens of "Christians" hanging out by the gates passing out flyers and holding up their signs letting me know that I'd go to hell for sinning.

As far as protests in general go. Anything that disrupts my day to day pisses me off. 1st ammendment rights are good and all, until it fucks with my ability to get from point A to point B. People should only be aloud to protest in public places where they aren't disrupting anyone's ability to live life normally. Nothing pisses me off more than 500 protesters crossing a street when I have a green light and not only are they not getting in trouble for it, the fucking police are making sure I wait so they can cross safely.

On a tangent, fuck anyone who has a motorcade as part of a funeral. Great, someone you loved died. Why the fuck do I have to suffer for it?

/rant

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Ammendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Okay, first of all, Planned Parenthood isn't a religious organization. Anti-abortion/pro-life =/= Christians. Still, I agree that standing around holding up inflammatory signs is a stupid way to try to convert people to your way of thinking.

Also, crosswalks ARE public places, so it's not like they're violating a law in just crossing the street. Now, if they parade back and forth across the street and are causing a major disruption, then you've got problems, but that's beside the point.

Now, I'm not defending these assholes, but technically they didn't break any laws. They were protesting on public land, and they did contact the police, presumably to get the okay for the protest, which is admittedly fucked up on all kinds of levels.

The way I see it, though, if the Supreme Court has any sense, they'll rule in Snyder's favor. Allowing the First Amendment to be used as an excuse to take 4chan on the road with you is insane. Not to say that 4chan doesn't have a place, but I think we can all agree that a funeral isn't that place.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Ammendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Unfortunately, as an outsider looking in, because fucks like those are so prominent in news stories, the world actually believes these nutjobs are an accurate portrayal of pretty much all Americans.

Obviously, having regular and daily communications with you fags, I see it different. I know that pretty much all decent Americans think these people are an abomination and a disgrace to the Christian churches, but shit like this is so unbelievable, it sticks in peoples minds all that much more.

Now, I'm all for freedom of speech, I really am. But there gets to a point where it stops being "freedom of speech" and becomes "freedom to offend and get away with it".

These fucks are so far into the latter that I think they actually embody its very meaning.

If people wanna protest against abortions, let them. Its a very delicate point, the human life. If people wanna protest about the war, let them. After all, it wasn't just illegal, it pretty much fucked the worlds economy and in turn, every single person on the planet's lives.

But turning up at a funeral and inciting hatred like this? Fuck man, someone turned up to one of my family/friends funerals and did that shit, I guaran-fucking-tee it that they'd need more fucking coffins.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:33 pm 
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crosswalks are public domain yes. but 500 people can't cross before the light turns red on them. After it's red they are no longer crossing legally. They are now blocking traffic.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Smokey wrote:
which believes military deaths are the work of a wrathful God who punishes the United States for tolerating homosexuality.


...Wait, what?



Like Blokey said, if they brought this shit into a funeral I was at, there's be some scalding coffee in some faces. One of the few things that bother me more than idiots are idiots who can't legally be stopped. Fuck that shit, I'll say what's right and wrong when you invade a funeral I attend.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
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I just finished watching a documentary that Louis Theroux did for BBC. He lived with these people for a while, went to the pickets to observe, interviewed certain people, that sort of thing. The rhetoric that these people spouted just confounds me to no end, and the pastor legitimately frightens me. I don't usually see people THAT off their rocker. Everything he said is in clear contradiction to established Christian doctrine.

I honestly pity them, at least the younger ones that had little to no chance of escaping this lunacy. I pity the rest of them, too, but contempt is the emotion that's uppermost in my mind regarding Mr. Phelps and his daughter, if only because of the harm they inflict upon everyone they come into contact with.

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
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Smokey wrote:
I just finished watching a documentary that Louis Theroux did for BBC. He lived with these people for a while, went to the pickets to observe, interviewed certain people, that sort of thing. The rhetoric that these people spouted just confounds me to no end, and the pastor legitimately frightens me. I don't usually see people THAT off their rocker. Everything he said is in clear contradiction to established Christian doctrine.

I honestly pity them, at least the younger ones that had little to no chance of escaping this lunacy. I pity the rest of them, too, but contempt is the emotion that's uppermost in my mind regarding Mr. Phelps and his daughter, if only because of the harm they inflict upon everyone they come into contact with.

I think i may have seen that
Did some guy throw a cup of coffee or something at them and it hit one of the kids?

Still, im with blokey on this one
But if anyone did this near a relations funeral of mine, i would hunt them down and go to town on their asses

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:31 pm 
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im just surprised that their protests arent considered hate crimes. a black man kills a white man for saying the you know what word and he gets off scott free because saying that is considered a hate crime.

yet when these people say their shit, theyre told that theyre allowed to because of freedom of speech

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
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apparently being gay isn't a constitutionally protected status in this country

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 Post subject: Re: Just how much does the First Amendment protect your right t
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I want to personally kill each and every member of the Westboro Baptist Church. They come up with the fucking ridiculous things. They picketed a 16 year football players funeral saying "We've told you for months that god hates your sport. Your sport, was the sport of faggots".
I mean REALLY?!
They travel everywhere picketing and protesting. I'm waiting until the day they protest somewhere here in jersey. I'll be making my fake signs and blending in with the crowd. It'll be wonderful.


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fanboy19 wrote:
crosswalks are public domain yes. but 500 people can't cross before the light turns red on them. After it's red they are no longer crossing legally. They are now blocking traffic.


you are 100% right

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